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PUBLIC Forums => Public Forums => Firearm Identification => Topic started by: Rachel on July 10, 2007, 09:22:06 AM

Title: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Rachel on July 10, 2007, 09:22:06 AM: Please can anyone shed any light on the origin of this sub-machine pistol. The only markings are "LUGER 9MM" on the rear left side of the receiver. The calibre is 9mm Luger. Plastic grip. Automatic fire selector lever is marked "1" and "X".

(http://DSCN0019.JPG)
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Axel Manthei on July 10, 2007, 11:00:47 AM: Rachel,

could you give us a calibre?

Axel
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jerryp on July 14, 2007, 09:23:43 PM: Axel

Looks like its a 9MM
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Charles Clow on July 16, 2007, 04:16:20 PM: I did some searching on the internet last night and found a website that had numerous sub machine guns and their history.

http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

I emailed the gentleman who oversees the site to see if he might know what the posted gun was. He said that he wasn't sure, but it reminded him of "some SMG produced in Eastern Europe (i.e. Croatia or Serbia) during turbulent 1990s."

Maybe something to look into.

Let us know how it turns out.

CMC
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jan De Ceuster on July 17, 2007, 03:17:16 AM: Eastern Europe was also my first guess, judging on the overall appearance.

It has indeed some design features that made me think of the Agram2000, although it's still quite different. So maybe Kroatian.
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Justine Kreso on July 17, 2007, 08:42:32 AM: Possibly some kind of Škorpion (CZ)/Samopal vzor 61 E (Zastava) knock-off?
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Axel Manthei on July 17, 2007, 01:15:53 PM: Justine,

the Scorpion is a completly different design (also no plastic except for the grips)

The direction Jan is pointing is probably right ... but we will find out.

Axel
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Brandon Bertolli on July 17, 2007, 04:29:08 PM: Courtesy of our friends at The High Road:

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/36/198033-m4905847.html

Check the bottom of the page. It is a match.
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jerryp on July 17, 2007, 08:47:37 PM: Way to go Brandon O0

Can anyone transate? :laugh:
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Charles Clow on July 17, 2007, 08:54:47 PM: I believe Аграм translates to Agram. So it would be an Agram 2002. Croatian . . . as Jan thought.

CMC

P.S. Here is a link that says that this model is a variant of the Agram 2000.

http://www.answers.com/topic/agram-2000
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jan De Ceuster on July 18, 2007, 02:06:29 AM: I'm good, I'm good :D
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Brandon Bertolli on July 18, 2007, 02:47:52 AM: Yes, well done to Jan for recognising the general 'family' of the gun. Perhaps Rachel should send him some fine Scottish shortbread in recognition of his expertise ;)
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jan De Ceuster on July 18, 2007, 03:16:01 AM: I'll settle for a nice single malt Scotch whisky :P
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Michelle Dilbeck on July 18, 2007, 02:42:07 PM: You guys are too fast. I was working on the translation when you posted. :'(

The caption says it is a "further (last) modification to the Agram 2002".
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Jan De Ceuster on July 20, 2007, 03:16:19 AM: A quick googleing on "Agram 2002" shows pictures of a differently looking firearm, i.e. the Agram 2000 where the foregrip was removed. Apparently this gun is marketed as the Agram 2002.

But, as a rule of thumb: never trust the Internet. Therefore, I have sent the picture to our Croatian colleagues for confirmation. Once I have news, I'll post it on the forum.
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Rachel on July 23, 2007, 04:46:17 AM: Hey
Thanks to everyone for their help, all your findings confirm our original thoughts as Croatian.

Jan
A single malt shouldn't be a problem.
How's the family doing?

Rachel
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Axel Manthei on July 24, 2007, 04:37:48 PM: Rachel,

I got some information from Slovenia about your SMG which it is an illegal "backyard" production.
See attached article (Slovenian language).

I will email you further non-public information directly to your office email as this is the public side of the forum and you can not access the members area.
Please enter your email address in your forum profile

Greetings

Axel

P.S.
Also a good reason to become a member ..... O0
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Justine Kreso on July 25, 2007, 02:50:05 PM: Here is a translation of the article talking about the questioned firearm that Axel posted:

April 9th, 2006

Agram for Criminals in England and Russia

At the beginning of the war* family Vugrek in their work shop in Gornji Golubovac constructed a sub machine gun Agram based on the Italian Beretta PM12-5. Later, it was perfected and named Agram 2000. This weapon was not mass produced but in the mid 90’s it showed up on black market. It is known that in 1998 Agram was used in St. Petersburg where a well known Russian politician Galina Sorovojtova was assassinated.
Even before this incident, Russian police had confiscated around 50 Agrams. Russian police had determined that this Croatian sub machine gun was brought in to their country by Russian soldiers who served as peace keepers in the former Yugoslavia.
In London, at the beginning of 2004 a drug dealer was arrested and the police found an Agram 2000 in his possession. British police calls this weapon as one of the most dangerous in the world because of its potential to cause chaos and destruction in the streets of London.

*The war in Croatia started in 1991.
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Michael Ward on July 25, 2007, 03:19:07 PM: Justine,

Where did you get the translation done?
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Justine Kreso on July 25, 2007, 03:23:05 PM: Quote from: Michael Ward on July 25, 2007, 03:19:07 PM
Justine,

Where did you get the translation done?

I tried my hand at doing it, then gave the rest to a native Serbo-Croat speaker to do.
Title: Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
Post by: Bill Wheatley on July 30, 2007, 08:41:53 AM: Has anyone put a call out to the ATF Firearms Technology Branch ref. this firearm. I'm sure they would be interested in having the info or maybe they have some info on it themselves.

304-260-1699