Topic: Serial Numbers

[Rachel B-K]

Hi All,

I am currently undertaking a PhD in the UK within the field of Firearms Identification and have obtained samples from a number of firearms (FN Browning Hi-Power, IMI Jericho 941FB, Glock 19 & H&K P9S so far) that I would like more information about.

Specifically, I would like to know the year of manufacture and any other information the serial numbers provide. Also, if possible, I need to find out exactly which rifling method was used to rifle these barrels, which are all factory fitted and potentially who manufactured the barrels if the rifled barrels are bought from another manufacturer.

I have tried to contact the manufacturers directly and have looked through past AFTE papers, but unfortunately have not obtained all the information I require. If anyone can help me or suggest someone else who can it would be much appreciated.

Please PM me and i can send you the serial numbers of the firearms.

Thanks
Rachel

[Justine Kreso]

Since you are in the UK, I would recommend contacting Leeds Royal Armouries and see if they can help you with the information you need.  They have quite a collection and a lot of infomation about serial numbers.  I'm not sure how much they would be willing to or could share, but it's worth a try.

[Aaron Brudenell]

The serial number on the Glock and Hi Power should reference to an approximate manufacture date, the Glock Armorer's manuals list approximate importation dates for the US and here's one link for the Browning: http://freespace.virgin.net/tony.crowe/How%20to%20read%20your.html  The HK should have a 2 number (1976 or earlier) or 2 letter (1977 and after) date code on the frame just above the trigger on the right side (see photo).  Date code details can be found here:
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=137:the-symbols-on-hk-firearms&catid=4:special-topics&Itemid=5

As with any reference, trust but verify.

[Dalibor]

For Glock pistols try
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412093

On any pistol that passed inspection (proof) in Austria there is 3 letter datecode (month and year) next to proofhouse mark (Npv for Vienna or Npf for Ferlach proofhouse). On pistols from Germany there is two letter datecode (year) next to proofhouse mark.

[Rachel B-K]

Thank you very much for the information and points of reference that you have supplied me with, they are much appreciated and helpful .

Any more of these regarding serial number codings would be very useful for any other 9 mm handgun manufacturer. I know that this is very wide ranging, but I am hoping to be looking at a large range of pistols during my research so advance knowledge would help no end.

Also, such contacts could even be for sales rep's (or equivalents) of manufacturers that I may be able to get this information from.

Thanks again
Rachel

[copdoc]

I know that this is very wide ranging

You could spend a lifetime on 9mm serial number ranges just of WWII pistols.  To try and collect info on all 9mm will be very challenging.

I have recently become  interested in the FN M1910 and M1922 primarily because there were duplicaitons in the serial numbers post WWII.  I bought a copy of "FN Browning Pistols" by Anthony Vanderlinden.  His book also has a lot of information in the High Power serial number range if you  need to include WWII era guns.  He is a very nice gentleman who will help you if you have a case and are in need of information.  For WWI/WWII 9mm Jan Still's books are great.  They are very expesive now since there was limited production.  He has a lot of information on High Powers as well a Lugers, P38s and Radom P35s.  Lugers, with all the variations, reuse of numbers and Gothic scripts can be challenging.  The guys on this forum are very knowledgable on Lugers and WWII guns.  It is not a forensic site so when they "match" a die stamp it is not the same. There is a table of Gothic script on the site for reading Luger serial numbers.

http://luger.gunboards.com/index.php

Interesting that there is a PhD in Firearms ID now.  I was a firearms examiner long ago, now a police surgeon.  I would not have gone to medical school if we had a program like that. 

[Rachel B-K]

Thank you for some more reference sources with regard to 9mm firearms.

I am currently trying to source a contact who may know about the manufacturing of Luger pistols at DWM in order to answer some of the technical questions I have. Do you think those on the forum could help with this or do you know of anyone else? I have tried to contact the company who now owns what was DWM, but have not had a response as yet.

Regards
Rachel

[copdoc]

Hi Rachel

What are the questions? 

Luger SNs are confusing as you have to ID the specific version even if you have the serial number.  For example Mauser Lugers may be marked with a Mauser banner, a code "42" or a code "S/42".  There are reissue Interarms Mauser Lugers. In addition to this there are also many fakes. 

The Luger forum is a good place to start.  Do you have Jan Still's books in your reference collection?  He is the owner of the site.

Luger collectors are probably the most serious of gun collectors wanting to know all the variations, die stamps, unit markings etc.

Here is a site with a lot of DWM Lugers for sale.  Most forensic reference collections don't have very many to study.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=179_181&osCsid=8ba1442f143bb216c79a2d9530d95008

I am not sure how to subscribe to this forum so email me if I forget to check.  Since I am not an AFTE member anymore I can not see the regular forum.

Doc

[Rachel B-K]

Hi Doc,

Thank you.

My main query is that I now would like to know which rifling method DWM used to rifle the barrels of their guns, specifically with regard to the Luger pistols.

Rach

[copdoc]

Now that is a piece of info that may be hard to find.  I will  look through the Luger books.

Is there a reason you need to know?  It is pretty rare to see a Luger in a case.  I had one submitted once but it was not used in a crime other that the drug possession.  I think I even took a pic of it and back then we did not photograph nearly as much.

You might try the Militaria Fundforum, specifically the "Handfeuerwaffen" section.  My German is  fundamental but they are interested in other countries participating.  They are nice guys but I don't go there as much because it is so labor intensive for me to read and write German.  I am sure they got a few laughs from it.

http://militaria-fundforum.com/index.php

http://militaria-fundforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16

If you don't speak German a lot of them speak English and will help translate.

Doc

[Charles Clow]

If you have one to examine, you can tell by examining the interior of the barrel.  

If the rifling is cut, the grooves will reveal a pattern of striated marks traveling with the  groove.  The lands should still possess reaming marks which run circumferentially around the interior of the barrel and obviously will be interupted by the cut grooves. Basically, these marks will be perpendicular to the grooves.

Button rifling will show the reaming marks on the lands and in the grooves.

CMC

[Rachel B-K]

If you have access to a number of reference sources, Doc, that would be great if you could. I do not have easy access to any on the Luger pistols. Evan Thompson has already checked "Lugers At Random" by Charles Kenyou, Jr. for me will no avail.

I am conducting some research into 9 x 19 mm calibre pistols and in order to make accurate comparisons of my data it would be most benificial to know how the rifling was done so I can categorise the samples I have. I have some test-fired samples from a Luger Artillery pistol and am likely to have to omit these samples if I cannot find out exactly which method of rifling was used.

Charles, unfortunately I do not now have access to the firearm now to take a look, but should be able to look at the cast I have retained. If these were cut, do you know whether in 1917 the rifling would have most likely been broach cut? I could not find a resource to say approx. dates when the three cut methods were used.

Rach

[Charles Clow]

I just checked our reference collection, we have one DWM Luger (Erfurt Crown on the toggle).  It is in 30 Luger and it has cut rifling.  As for the type of cut rifling we are talking about . . . I'm not sure . . . I am looking through my references . . . my bet is broach though.

The date just ahead of the ejection port reads 1917.

CMC

[Rachel B-K]

Yes, I have just checked the cast and mine also appears to be cut rifled. Yours is of the same year so that at least suggests that the barrels were rifled similarly.

If you do manage to find any information regarding dates when cut rifling types may have been used, this would be very benificial to my research.

Thanks, Charles.
Rachel