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Author Topic: New Headstamps  (Read 350876 times)

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Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2006, 06:14:50 PM »
Richard

Here are four cases whose manufacturer is unknown to me. I initially thought that the one with the triangle was a Norinco (I compared it to the headstamps in the gallery) but the apex is oriented the other way.
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Doug Lancon

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2006, 06:28:57 PM »
Brandon, you may well have missed your calling.  I think that my calling has missed me. :laugh:
Doug Lanšon

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2006, 06:31:46 PM »
Doug you may very well be right about me  ;D


In the gallery I see that there is a headstamp in the numbers album labelled "13" and listed as Pretoria Metal Pressings. Well I have three .223 cartridge cases here that are from a full auto shooting course I did in South Africa. Two of them are 13s and the other is a 14. I will not be surprised if these are found to be Pretoria Metal Pressings too. One other thing: because I am not in the know, I was initially confused by the right-angled impression on the rim of my samples and I thought that was part of the headstamp. But thinking this through logically I reckon they are not part of the headstamp because:

1) They do not appear at the same position on the head, relative to the numbers.
2) They appear at the same position on the head, relative to the ejector indent on the outside of the case after firing.

I am guessing that those are breech impressions (or similar) and possibly if someone here has access to a South African R5 rifle (a derivative of the Israeli Galil) they may be able to confirm this.
This all makes me think that it must be difficult at times to appreciate headstamps when you have been given discharged cartridge cases for analysis and they have discharge impressions of various sorts on them.
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Charles Clow

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2006, 07:06:12 PM »
That "right-angled impression" mark you speak of is the ejector mark.

CMC

Offline Richard Hitchcox

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 11:11:47 AM »
Brandon,

I was busy with a court rush officer involved shooting case and didn't have time to respond to your post while in the office.  Some of the headstamps you posted are familiar to me while others are not.  I do have the CartWinPro program and will post any information the program may have on the headstamps you posted.  That will be Monday when I'm back in the office though, since the program is only on my work computer.

Richard
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 11:23:11 AM by Richard Hitchcox »
1911 is faster than 911 ~ anonymous

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 02:22:30 PM »
Thanks Charles and Richard for information: I am learning a few things here and I appreciate it.
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Richard Hitchcox

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2006, 08:42:44 AM »
Brandon,

The information I am providing is from CartWinPro:

13 is Pretoria Metal Pressings (PMP)

14 is not in CartWinPro

9MM (with no other markings) is not in CartWinPro

S&B is Sellier & Bellot and is already in the headstamp gallery

(Triangle)   93 is Norinco

Swirls is not in CartWinPro, but I have seen it before.  I just can't remember what it is.

I do have an upgrade for CartWinPro that has not been installed.  I'm waiting for someone with administrator rights to help me get it uploaded.  I'll check back after the upgrade is installed.

Anyone else want to give it a shot at identifying these?

Richard

1911 is faster than 911 ~ anonymous

Offline Richard Hitchcox

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2006, 09:28:33 AM »
Brandon,

Okay, I got the upgrade loaded and found information on two more.

According to CartWinPro:

Swirls is Swartclip Produkts (Pty) Ltd., Cape Town, South Africa

14 is Yugoslavia Factory number 14 (1929-1991)

Richard
1911 is faster than 911 ~ anonymous

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2006, 09:53:27 AM »
Thanks, Richard, these headstamps are interesting, there must be thousands of them. A thought aoccurred to me: is it possible that two companies could both make a cartridge with the simple '9mm' headstamp? What do you do if that is the case?
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Paul Murphy

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2006, 11:12:00 AM »
Brandon
From your first set of images - the top one 9mm Luger from PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings)second one Sellier & Bellot, third one Norinco and the bottom one Swartklip Products, South Africa (SP - Denel).
Your second set of images appears to be all 5.56mm military headstamps made by PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings).- I visited both factories on a frequent basis when I worked in the SAPS Forensic Lab)
Paul J Murphy
Senior Firearms Technical Advisor
Forensic Technology Inc
Paul Murphy

Offline Richard Hitchcox

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2006, 11:45:50 AM »
Paul, Thank you for the information.  Personal knowledge and information is always preferable to information one finds in a database.

Brandon, I don't know how to answer your question regarding two manufacturers using the same headstamp, since I have never encountered that before.  My answer is, I don't know.  Does anyone else want to take a shot at answering this question?

Richard

« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 11:22:15 PM by Richard Hitchcox »
1911 is faster than 911 ~ anonymous

Offline David Wright

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2006, 03:22:28 PM »
Now that there is some recent activity on the headstamp forums, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all of those who have submitted images and provided information for the database. 

I'll do my best to get these latest images added and update some of the current galleries over the next few days. 

If you haven't checked out the guide in a while, please take a look.  Most of the headstamps in the "Letters" gallery now have manufacturer's web links and company profiles/histories attached to the images.

The AFTE Headstamp Guide is still very much a work in progress and any comments/feedback that may help improve the database are always welcome.  Additionally, please alert me of any errors or inaccurate information that you may encounter. 

Whether they have been acquired through a microscope, point-and-shoot camera, or flatbed scanner, the contibuted images have all been fantastic.  Keep up the good work and keep the photos coming!

Thanks,
David Wright
Firearm & Toolmark Section Supervisor
Johnson County Sheriff's Office Criminalistics Laboratory
David.Wright@jocogov.org

Offline Axel Manthei

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2006, 04:31:11 PM »
Hi,

the headstamp with "14" on the bottom and the two digits at 12 o'clock  is made by Pretoria Metall Pressing (PMP).

"14" is also used by Yugoslavia as factory number but has a different headstamp arrangement.

The "9MM" headstamp is as well made by PMP



Richard,

I have been to Pretoria/RSA at the end of last month and brought back a quite a few of those cases and cartridges. Both above mentioned headstamps and others are waiting on my desk to be entered during this week.
The next update for the CartWinPro database is scheduled for the beginning of next month. You will also find a complete Yugoslavian "14" headstamp then as well.

Axel Manthei

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2006, 05:17:29 AM »
Thanks Paul, I bet you saw a few things when you were in SA. I am trying to set up protocols for the retrieval of projectile evidence for theatre staff and casualty staff. I am more involved with the patient side of things.

@ All

Are you doing shotgun headstamps as well, or do you get enough information from the hull to not need it?
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Ashely Northcutt

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Re: New Headstamps
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2006, 11:22:59 AM »

International .45 Auto Frangible HP

International Cartridge Corp.
2273 Route 310
Reynoldsville, PA 15851
877-422-5332 toll free
814-938-6821 fax
http://www.internationalcartridge.com/index.html

Ashely Northcutt
Independent Consultant

 

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