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Author Topic: Unknown sub-machine pistol  (Read 56718 times)

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Rachel

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Unknown sub-machine pistol
« on: July 10, 2007, 09:22:06 AM »
Please can anyone shed any light on the origin of this sub-machine pistol. The only markings are "LUGER 9MM" on the rear left side of the receiver. The calibre is 9mm Luger. Plastic grip. Automatic fire selector lever is marked "1" and "X".


« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 11:05:26 AM by Rachel »

Offline Axel Manthei

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 11:00:47 AM »
Rachel,

could you give us a calibre?

Axel

Jerryp

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 09:23:43 PM »
Axel

Looks like its a 9MM

Offline Charles Clow

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 04:16:20 PM »
I did some searching on the internet last night and found a website that had numerous sub machine guns and their history. 

http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

I emailed the gentleman who oversees the site to see if he might know what the posted gun was.  He said that he wasn't sure, but it reminded him of "some SMG produced in Eastern Europe (i.e. Croatia or Serbia) during turbulent 1990s."

Maybe something to look into.

Let us know how it turns out.

CMC

Offline Jan De Ceuster

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 03:17:16 AM »
Eastern Europe was also my first guess, judging on the overall appearance.

It has indeed some design features that made me think of the Agram2000, although it's still quite different. So maybe Kroatian.
Jan De Ceuster
Nationaal Instituut voor Criminalistiek en Criminologie
Brussels, Belgium

Offline Justine Kreso

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 08:42:32 AM »
Possibly some kind of Škorpion (CZ)/Samopal vzor 61 E (Zastava) knock-off?
Justine Kreso
Onondaga County Center for Forensic Sciences
Syracuse, NY

Offline Axel Manthei

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 01:15:53 PM »
Justine,

the Scorpion is a completly different design (also no plastic except for the grips)

The direction Jan is pointing is probably right ... but we will find out.

Axel

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 04:29:08 PM »
Courtesy of our friends at The High Road:

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/36/198033-m4905847.html

Check the bottom of the page. It is a match.
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Jerryp

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 08:47:37 PM »
Way to go Brandon  O0

Can anyone transate?  :laugh:


Offline Charles Clow

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 08:54:47 PM »
I believe Аграм translates to Agram. So it would be an Agram 2002.  Croatian . . . as Jan thought.

CMC


P.S. Here is a link that says that this model is a variant of the Agram 2000.

http://www.answers.com/topic/agram-2000
 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 09:01:07 PM by Charles Clow »

Offline Jan De Ceuster

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2007, 02:06:29 AM »
I'm good, I'm good  :D
Jan De Ceuster
Nationaal Instituut voor Criminalistiek en Criminologie
Brussels, Belgium

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 02:47:52 AM »
Yes, well done to Jan for recognising the general 'family' of the gun. Perhaps Rachel should send him some fine Scottish shortbread in recognition of his expertise  ;)
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Jan De Ceuster

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 03:16:01 AM »
I'll settle for a nice single malt Scotch whisky  :P
Jan De Ceuster
Nationaal Instituut voor Criminalistiek en Criminologie
Brussels, Belgium

Offline Michelle Dilbeck

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2007, 02:42:07 PM »
You guys are too fast. I was working on the translation when you posted.   :'(

The caption says it is a "further (last) modification to the Agram 2002".
Alameda County Sheriff's Office Crime Laboratory

Offline Jan De Ceuster

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Re: Unknown sub-machine pistol
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2007, 03:16:19 AM »
A quick googleing on "Agram 2002" shows pictures of a differently looking firearm, i.e. the Agram 2000 where the foregrip was removed. Apparently this gun is marketed as the Agram 2002.

But, as a rule of thumb: never trust the Internet. Therefore, I have sent the picture to our Croatian colleagues for confirmation. Once I have news, I'll post it on the forum.
Jan De Ceuster
Nationaal Instituut voor Criminalistiek en Criminologie
Brussels, Belgium

 

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