Topic: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets

[Jamie Becker]

Instead of phone books...I have "outdated" vest, donated by a local PD, stacked at the back of my cotton box.

[Ron Nichols]

Armor Forensics sells a recovery tube made from steel and filled with shredded kevlar. I was first introduced to it at Oakland and we purchased one here at ATF. It really is very effective at stopping 223 and others within a reasonable distance and in excellent condition.

[Greg Klees]

If you are looking for something to research that is cheap and non-cotton, check-out my article directly related to your inquiry in AFTE Journal, Vol. 30, #2, 1998, Pp. 280-282.

-INGTLI

 

[Nat Pearlson]

Up here in northern Minnesota I see quite a variety of firearms that don’t make themselves amenable to firing into water.  I just wanted to make a comment regarding optimizing results from a cotton box.  I have had great success obtaining test fired bullets covering a wide range of velocities and energies, all in excellent condition, in my cotton box (including lead and polymer tipped).  One key is packing the cotton as tightly as possible.  Loosely packed cotton will result in “burnishing” or rub marks on the exterior of the bullets.  As mentioned, paper dividers save time in bullet recovery.  Also, if you are using rolled cotton batting, you need to stagger the shots and then reposition the batting after 3 or 4 shots so you don’t get bullets tracking down holes, following the path of least resistance and slamming into previous test bullets.

I also believe that tightly packed cotton reduces the potential to have a fire start in the cotton box.  I have never seen this but I have heard stories.  This could be an urban legend, but it seems that air space in loose cotton would promote this (maybe back the muzzle off a few more inches too).

Our lab has two very nice 8 foot stainless steel boxes that were manufactured based on our specifications for about $1500.  They were made for us by W.J. Haas Manufacturing in St. Paul (Mark Haas – 651-224-8552).  Prior to these boxes we got by with a wooden box that was very inexpensive and worked very well.  The only problem is the occasional round sneaking down the side and exiting the trap.

[Charlie DeArmond]

Have found high power BTSPs fired into snow that appeared perfectly decelerated. Don't know how dependent the effect is upon type and condition or even thickness of snow, but it you're up north in the winter and need to do this in a pinch real fast it might be worth a try. A common metal detector should aid in recovery. Have never tried this. Just observed the effect.

[Jerryp]

Thanks Charlie

[Greg Scala]

The cheapest solution I can think of is, that is if you already have a water tank, is to use Federal "Tactical" 223 ammo.  This stuff is designed to be fired through windshields and not fragment too much.  It really holds up well fired into water.

[babyglock9mm]

Dang Bob, I'm just getting used to your other invention...the discount water tank.   

Tk

[DYesucevitz]

Hi everyone,
  My name is Derek, I recently made a post about possible ideas of a graduate school forensics thesis. I have had a course in Pattern Evidence/firearms/toolmark analysis and I also collect and regularly shoot. I came across this interesting discussion and was wondering if this idea of a "cotton box" could somehow become a thesis topic/project?

If so, does anyone have any information/background that I could look in to? Thank you all very much.

~Derek

[Charles Clow]

Unfortunetely, I would say no because the cotton box has been a standard in the field for about as long as the field has been around. We already know that it works.

CMC

[winterh]

Something I have never attempted, but wanted to.
Wind tunnels used in aircraft development can generate velosities in the supersonic range. Has anyone thought of constructing a scaled down wind tunnel and test firing into the wind? I would assume one could get maximum resistance from the moving air without destroying the projectile. I doubt the bullet would travel more than a few yards before forward motion was overcome, Just a thought !!...HW

[Evan Thompson]

While at AFTE in Chicago, it was mentioned that at the original Chicago PD Crime Laboratory, there was a small desktop cotton box on wheels that examiners test fired handgun bullets into. (archive photos??)  Supposedly, the energy of the bullet was dissipated by the cotton and forward motion of the box.  If so, maybe this would work as well with high velocity bullets, but on a larger scale. 

[Nelson Welch]

OK.... although this is outside of the normal work we do in Firearms examinations but based on the posting by "winterh" and Evan Thompson, I would suggest a search on Wikipedia for those that are interested.   
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I would start with "Ballistics" and this will have links to "Exterior Ballistics", "Interior Ballistics", "Transitional Ballistics" and "Terminal Ballistics".  The "Exterior Ballistics" section is 9 pages long and very good.  It also has links to some freeware that you can download and use.  Notice the mention of Sandia Labs here in Albuquerque.
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take care.. I prefer to say that I am not a Ballistics Expert.
nelson.  505-771-2878  or cell 505-288-0000
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ps
I did do a demonstration once for some medical examiners to show them that a person would not be "knocked" backwards by getting shot by a .45-70 wearing a bullet proof vest.  I took a 15 pound piece of railroad tie and shot it with a .357 Magnum .
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 Prior to shooting it, I measured the coefficient of friction for the railroad tie on the table top and calculated for them that the distance the tie would move would be about 2 inches.  After shooting it.. the measured distance was about 1.75 inches which was close enough for government work. 

[Rob Caunt]

Again, replying to an old topic.
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