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Author Topic: Unknown Headstamp  (Read 35217 times)

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Offline David Wright

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Unknown Headstamp
« on: August 23, 2007, 02:59:05 PM »
Unknown headstamp...or lack thereof...

Jaimie Smith of the Kansas City MO PD Crime Lab recently received this 7.62x39mm caliber cartridge (FMJ, unknown grain weight) and was wondering if anyone has seen anything similar.

Thanks,
David Wright
Assistant Director
Johnson County Sheriff's Office Criminalistics Laboratory
David.Wright@jocogov.org

Offline Richard Hitchcox

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 03:04:09 PM »
Axel,

I don't know how to seach CartWinPro for information that isn't there (lack of a headstamp).  Is this in there? 

Richard
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 08:13:30 AM by Richard Hitchcox »
1911 is faster than 911 ~ anonymous

Offline Dwight Deskins

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 09:03:55 PM »
I googled up this thread which references Lake City making 7.62x39 with no headstamp and red sealant.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10848&sid=09eabba19ced83f6411f51a301179423

Three posts down in the discussion.........

"This round looks like the Lake City stuff produced for Camboda and clandestine purposes back about 1970 which had the standard Lake City shade of red PA seal with no headstamp."
Dwight Deskins
KSP Eastern Regional Crime Laboratory
1550 Wolohan Drive - Suite 2
Ashland, KY 41102
(606)929-9142
FAX - (606)929-9364
dwight.deskins@ky.gov

Offline Charles Clow

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 03:55:54 AM »
Yes, I am checking the forums in Sweden.  It is a sickness.

The sealant looks orange in the photo.  Hansen comes to mind.  I don't remember them having markings on the head but that orange sealant is pretty distinctive.  I obviously don't have reference to check, but I know we have some if one of my Dallas folks could check.

Chärles

Offline Bob Poole

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 06:18:35 AM »
I remember from my "green suit" days that Lake City was involved in producing stuff like this for the reasons Dwight alludes to.  I think he's probably spot-on given the proximity of the seizure.

Offline Axel Manthei

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 03:11:52 PM »
I am on holiday in Turey and the battery of the laptop is low on power so I have to be brief
.
I have see one like this and it was from former Yugoslavia.

I will post a pic as soon as possible for comparision

Greetings

Axel

Offline Bob Poole

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 04:51:56 PM »
I think it reasonable that both Charles and Axel might be right.  I agree with Charles' assessment on the color of the primer sealant.  Hansen as they are/were marketed in the U.S. was from Privi Partizan in the former Yugoslavia.

As many of you may recall, until the early '90's, Yugoslavia was but one of several countries in Eastern Europe on the other side of the Iron Curtain.  They were the enemy during the cold war era.  And it was known that some of our adversaries in Europe and the Soviet Union were providing war fighting supplies to the enemy we were fighting in Indochina during the Viet Nam conflict in the '60's and '70's.

The information we had at the Army Crime Lab back in the '70's was that Lake City had made "a bunch" (quantity unknown) of 7.62 X 39mm for some special folks . . . doing unique things . . . in Southeast Asia.  The absence of a headstamp was for non-attribution.  It wasn't supposed to look like it came from the United States.  Would they have made it to look like a product from an Eastern Block country?  I'm not sure.  I don't recall now whether or not we (the Army lab) ever got our hands on some of the stuff.

(That's about $0.03 worth of really useless information that provides no answer to the original question.)

Bob Poole
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Offline David Wright

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »
This Igman cartridge from our headstamp gallery displays a somewhat consistent primer sealant color.
David Wright
Assistant Director
Johnson County Sheriff's Office Criminalistics Laboratory
David.Wright@jocogov.org

Forensic

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 04:05:49 AM »
Hi,
my cartridges from the LC-Plant (they are out from the box, so I can confirm the provenance) do not have the same appearance. They all have a circular primer crimp (also the blue sealed/nickel primer ones from BELL).
They do also have NO beveled edges, as the one in the picture of the  threadstarter.

But in the other hand, my yougoslavians in the reference collection here, do not have bevelled edges so pronounced as in the picture either. This means nothing, as they bought a lot of new machines, to fullfill US-Military orders now.
My last ones from Jugoslavia (not correct, as this are now several independent states) do have small Nickel Boxer primers and no longer the large brass primers...
To get more ideas, a close up from the whole cartridge (not only the hs) may can shed more light on it. Sometimes the color of the case and the annealing color reveals the "parents"...but the problem is, that a computer picture is only as good, as the monitor is calibrated for colors. The color what I see, is maybe not the same, what your monitor is showing you.
For that reason, colors are only comparable, if a colorcode from reference tables is used.

Forensic
Forensic Service Wellen/Germany
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 04:08:57 AM by Forensic »

Offline Axel Manthei

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 02:43:04 PM »
David,

now I am up and running.

Please see the enclosed picture. This one is defininitely Yugoslavia.
I do not know if it is Igman or PPU (or one of the others in YU) but it is from YU.

There are multiple countries who made headstamp-less 7,62x39 (I remember 7 off hand) but they all have a different appearance. The circular grooves are typically YU. I have seen it in different collection and have one in mine as well (if I recollect correct).


Best greetings

Axel

Offline Ed Love

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2007, 11:48:37 AM »
I have had several of these come across  my desk here in Iraq. They are basically identical to the photo; one collector believes them to be Bosnian and I put a lot of confidence in his answers.

Offline Charles Clow

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Re: Unknown Headstamp
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 11:41:23 AM »
I'm back to work from a really nice vacation.  O0

I really thought we had some of this stuff in reference.  All I could find was a photograph in my personal reference saying that it was an example of Hansen in 7.62x39mm.  It has the distinctive orange sealant, apparently brass case and no head stamp.  I'll peruse the collection once more to see if I stumble on to something.

CMC

 

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