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Author Topic: Cocking force of a 92F pistol  (Read 18233 times)

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Offline afss

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Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« on: October 14, 2009, 03:26:49 PM »
Hello everyone,

I have a case, involving a 13 years old boy, who accidentally fired his friend. One of the things which puzzled me is how he managed to cock the gun.
As a preparation before examining the gun, I would like to know what is the power needed to fully pull the slide of a Beretta 92F Compact 9 mm pistol all the way back.
If anyone has information about minimum/maximum forces as determined by the manufacturer, I'll be most happy to receive it.
If this data is not available, I would appreciate any information about measurements which you took.
Thank you,
Lior Nedivi
lior@afss.co.il
Talk softly and cary a big gun!

Offline Matthew Kurimsky

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 03:49:24 PM »
Have you tried to contact Beretta and ask them what wieght recoil spring they use in this model. Also in your case is it assumed that the kid had to load the pistol or could there have already been a round in the chamber?
the .223/5.56 round has such little wounding potential, it actually causes negative damage.

it has been shown in laboratory tests to heal bruises, small scrapes and cuts, and in one instance, it unhurt someone's feelings.

Offline Michael Haag

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 06:55:44 PM »
Of course the slide could have been locked back, and all he needed to do was put a mag in (if it wasnt already in) and depress the slide release or pull the slide back slightly...
Do you have a known starting point?
mgh

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Offline afss

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 07:47:06 AM »
Hi everyone,

First, thanks to all the repliers. Second, in answer to your questions:
The kid took the gun, load a magazine into the butt, pulled the slide back, squized the triger few times and only then a shot was fired.
I intend to examine the triger pull, the slide pull, the magazine & the safety mechanism. I have a feeling something is wrong with that pistol.
About asking Beretta, do you think they will answer?
Lior
Talk softly and cary a big gun!

Offline Matthew Kurimsky

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 11:57:30 AM »
I think beretta would likely give you the specs on the factory recoil spring. They may also give you the factory trigger pull weight also. Only one way to find out. Good luck.
the .223/5.56 round has such little wounding potential, it actually causes negative damage.

it has been shown in laboratory tests to heal bruises, small scrapes and cuts, and in one instance, it unhurt someone's feelings.

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 04:18:23 PM »
Instead of pulling the slide back, he may have used a technique which focusses more on pushing the frame forward. See Kathy Jackson's page on Cornered Cat for more info:

http://www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/rack.aspx

Or in a pinch, he could have just snagged the front sight on a desk edge and then used both hands to push the frame forward.
Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

Offline Scott Doyle

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 10:22:21 AM »
I know eight-year-old's that could rack the slide on a pistol.  By age 13 I would suspect it would not be a hard thing to do.

Knowing how to do it would likely come down to how many times he has watched someone using a firearm or what he has read/watched on the internet.  Also, TV gives kids the knowledge they need to have an basic understanding of how guns work.  Often this understanding is flawed and can lead to accidents/tragedies like the one you have.

Beretta's are pretty reliable but damage can occur in any gun and it should be thoroughly inspected. 

The Beretta 92 F/S has a trigger disconnect safety (not sure if this is the model you are referring to).  If engaged, the trigger could be pulled repeatedly and nothing would happen. 



Offline afss

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 03:37:43 PM »
Knowing how to do it would likely come down to how many times he has watched someone using a firearm or what he has read/watched on the internet.  Also, TV gives kids the knowledge they need to have an basic understanding of how guns work.  Often this understanding is flawed and can lead to accidents/tragedies like the one you have.

It is even worse, his dad showed him how to use the gun!!!! >:(
Talk softly and cary a big gun!

Offline Zak Carr

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 04:49:21 PM »
I know eight-year-old's that could rack the slide on a pistol.  By age 13 I would suspect it would not be a hard thing to do.

My Dad had taught me how to load, chamber and fire his 9mm Browning Hi-Power well before the time I was 13.   ::---   I don't recall it being all too difficult.

Prior to ever holding it though, I was taught extensive safe handling practices. 
Z.
Zak Carr
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Offline Dana Gicale

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 01:49:23 PM »
I have met several kids, girls/boys 13 and under, who could safely handle and even shoot pistols and score very well in competetition.  It don't really see the mystery of a 13 year old loading, chambering and firing a fully functional Beretta.  I would not automatically suspect a malfunction unless there was some other reason once you get the gun.

I agree . . .
... Definitely much worse for a kid to follow BAD TV gun practices than for them to learn RESPONSIBLE gun handling early on from an adult PARENT.
Dana Bonar Gicale
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Offline Steve Scott

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 07:35:54 AM »
I had a similar case once upon a time.  I rigged up a system across the front of the slide, and using our trigger pull weights was able to determine how much pressure (pounds) it took to pull the slide fully to the rear.  I don't remember the gun type, or how much the weight was, and I had no references to say whether it was heavy, normal or light.
Steve Scott

Offline Lynn Skoglund

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 04:26:36 PM »
I just wanted to throw the idea out there too that the hammer could be cocked manually first and then the slide could be pulled back to chamber the first round.  It's a heck of a lot easier to do that if one is weak (so I've been told by a friend  ;) )than to try and overcome the weight of the hammer and recoil spring together.

Offline afss

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 04:45:48 AM »
Hello everyone,
First, thank you for all your answers, it helped me alot.
Second, after I put the question, I visited the scene and I found other evidences that could support the child version (that he did not see his friend comming). He had an hearing and we hope that the prosecution will lower the charges against him.
The case brought me to think about simple ways of measuring the slide pull and I have some ideas. If it will "grow" into a valid system, I will notify you. Thanks again,
Lior
Talk softly and cary a big gun!

Offline Brandon Bertolli

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Re: Cocking force of a 92F pistol
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2009, 02:52:42 PM »
Quote
I visited the scene and I found other evidences that could support the child version (that he did not see his friend comming).

This is the problem that hurts all firearms owners. This kid wasn't taught the four rules, evidently:

1) Treat all guns as loaded.
2) Do not let the muzzle point at anything you are not willing to destroy or kill.
3) Finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
4) Be sure of your target and beyond.

Brandon Bertolli, Radiographer, bbertolli(at)yahoo.com

 

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